1) Health
Vegans/Vegetarians. Meat is bad for you. It contains too much saturated fat and makes you obese which is the root cause of a whole range of health issues: Colon cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, heart diseases are all higher among omnis.
Omnivores. Most elite athletes are omnis. Most vegetarians suffer from vitamin B-12 deficiency and that can result in brain shrinkage. Meat is good for you, it contains things you cannot get from veggies. You can stay healthy with a vegan diet, but you need supplements. HerrMonk says "The most bio-available and highest quality fats for us, come from animal sources. Plant protein is low-quality, and lacks all the essential amino acids to be used as a complete protein source. It is nearly impossible to get enough saturated fat, and omega 3s from plant sources in nature. It's very easy from animal. B-12 is an essential micro-nutrient, that is only available from animal sources (despite mis-labeled 'vegan' friendly sources)."
Vegans/Vegetarians. Food borne disease is a problem with meat. Ground beef is dangerous. It is often contaminated with pathogenic strains of E-coli. It can kill. It is contaminated because the CAFOs keep cattle in contact with feces and the pathogens get on their hide and feed. It gets on the meat in the butchering because they move too quickly and don't take enough care. It is all driven by greed.
Omnivores. Sprouts, lettuce, apple juice, and other fruits and veggies have killed as many as meats. The connection between meat and heart disease is being questioned by scientists. Carbs are just as bad, maybe even worse than animal fats and they come primarily from plants. FDA experts say sprouts are more dangerous than ground beef, even when home grown.
Vegans/Vegetarians. Actually, B-12 can be produced by fungii and bacteria. The risk of food born illness is high. StopCensoringMe says "The factory raised meat most eat is a cesspool of unhealthy chemicals" among them antibiotics, steroids, and growth hormones which get into humans and cause a range of problems from antibiotic resistance to early puberty. The farts of omnis smell really bad. That must mean something.
Goldwyn. There are MANY people below who believe that eliminating meat has made them healthier. That kind of anecdotal info cannot be argued. But it is not science. There is a growing body of science on the benefits and dangers of both diets. Let's start with that which we can all agree: Research seems to weigh heavily against processed foods, especially processed meats. It seems also clear that too much meat can be unhealthy. But there is plenty of evidence that a diet lacking meat can be dangerous unless it is carefully watched to make sure it gets all the proper vitamin, especially B-12. It seems that a vegetarian diet can be just as dangerous as an omnivorous diet if it is not tended to carefully with supplements. If it is, it is likely to be more healthy than an omnivorous diet.As for food borne illness, dangerous strains of e-coli and salmonella are the most common problems in meat and veggies, but there are many other pathogens. All can be killed with proper cooking. Undercooked ground beef and poultry are serious risks, but raw sprouts, lettuce, spinach can also be dangerous. Raw sprouts should probably be outlawed, and homegrown sprouts are just as risky as aw ground beef. Bottom line: Neither diet is more dangerous if practiced properly and intelligently. That's a big if.
2) Evolution
O. Humans have evolved as omnivores. Our teeth are designed for it. Our saliva and digestive systems are designed for meat. Hematite says "Humans have teeth adapted to an omnivorous diet. There is no serious debate about this. Our teeth resemble those of pigs and bears, both omnivores. Humans have the gut of an omnivore. We lack any chambers for the fermentation of cellulose, a hallmark of most true herbivores, but we also lack the short intestine of true carnivores. The shortness of the carnivore intestine is not, as sometimes claimed by vegans, because meat is needs to be expelled quickly but because meat is easy to and does not require the large surface area for absorbing nutrients that herbivores need."Eat or be eaten is the way of the world. In the wild sweet cute animals eat each other all the time. Even our kin, gorillas eat a monkey now and then. And don't think your dog or cat wouldn't eat you if it could.
V. Our digestive systems are designed for vegetable matter. Humans were not meat eaters until the Ice Age. So over the course of history, we were vegetarians longer than we were omnivores. But evolutionary history doesn't mean we have to always eat meat. We can evolve again. We now have other options. Technology has freed us from hunting.
G. It doesn't matter what our ancestors did. The world today is vastly different. Each individual is different. If it can be proved that one diet or another is better, then our canine teeth can be used to bite apples as as well as meat.
3) Culture and tradition
O. Meat has been a part of human culture forever. True, some societies don't eat meat, and a few omit certain meats, but most cultures have meat in their rituals religious ceremonies, and habits. In the US, since the end of WWII it became practically a national mantra to have meat once a day. We were taught that this was a balanced diet.
V. We were taught wrong. We now know more and we need to leave behind foolish things as we mature as a society. Christi Vidrio says "At one time we believed that smoking was good for you, but now we know better. Same with meat."
G. We have to understand that our cultures and traditions arose from ignorance centuries ago. If somebody can prove that lamb is dangerous, then Jews will have to learn to eat eat pot roast for Passover and use the lamb shank just for show. What? They do already? Oh... Nevermind...
4) Taste
V. There are a lot of fabulous tasting recipes that don't involve meat or animal products. You can be thoroughly satisfied without eating meat.
O. Meats taste great. A lot of vegetables taste bad. Nobody likes lima beans or Brussel sprouts. If meat is so bad, how come so many vegan products are made to taste like meat? Why would I restrict the sensory inputs available to me. I have only five senses. Omitting some foods would be like poking out an eye.
G. Meat tastes good to many people and living without it would be very hard for them. For many people, the culinary arts are as vital as the other arts, and living without meat would be like life without dance. To others it is disgusting. This is the definitive case of taste being a matter of taste.
5) Meat is murder
V. Animals are sentient beings. They are our peers in many ways. The earth needs them. We need to show them respect. Killing animals is tantamount to killing people. Who gave us the right to enslave animals to make milk, eggs, and then we eat their flesh? Sele45 says "The main basis of my vegan life is to refrain from taking things that aren't mine. The word 'arrogant' comes from a word meaning 'to take for oneself.' It's supremely arrogant of humans to believe they have more of a right to the body and life of another being than the being itself."
O. Humans have evolved with a higher consciousness, and have earned their place near the top of the food chain. It is natural selection to put animals and plants to work for us. Hunting is needed to control wildlife populations. Deer would overrun many farms and destroy crops if hunters did not thin the crop. Remember, these animals would not have been born if not for use as food. They owe their lives to their end use.
O. Plants have feelings too. They respond to environmental changes similar to animals. Their biological systems are intricate and complex, just like animals. Some cooperate to protect the community. But because they do not have faces, we feel free to kill them. They are very important to the ecology. They make oxygen. And just what does sentient mean? Why are plants not sentient beings?
V. Sele45 says "Plants have no pain receptors. Also, plants make about 40% more foliage than they need to live. Their fruits are intended to smell and look appetizing because when they are picked and eaten the seed is more likely to be spread. Being eaten furthers the life cycle of fruits. And foliage is produced in excess."
G. For some, this is a religious issue and there is a strong desire to evangelize. Animals seem to be godlike to both sides. This debate depends upon emotion vs. science, IMHO. It seems that those who believe meat is murder draw a line on the food chain ladder, and that line seems to me to be arbitrary. That line seems to be at animals with eyes or faces. But why do eyes make one creature inedible and another edible? Vegans hate the smartass question omnivores always throw out about plants having rights and feelings too, but they need to answer it and they are not doing that very well below. They just dismiss it as silly. The other side makes a more powerful case in my clearly biased opinion, that plants are every bit as adept at surviving in their niche in the world as animals, that they are extremely complex individuals and societies, and it can be clearly demonstrated that they can be stressed.
6) Meat is torture
V. Related to, but different from the above topic "Meat is Murder". Animals have fear, feelings, and rights. The way we grow them, hold them in CAFOs (concentrated animal feeding operations) and factory farms is inhumane. Then we cram them with grains they have problems digesting, then we cram them into slaughterhouses where they can smell and hear death, then we manhandle them just before the kill, and then we kill them inefficiently so some die slowly and in pain. Just watch the films of animal cruelty from CAFOs and slaughterhouses.
O. MarcEdward says "Factory farms aren't petting zoos - I get it. Your argument is identical is to the Pro-Lifers who post pictures of abortions. Prettiness is not a basis for ethics. Factory farms are efficient - they produce the maximum amount of meat for the least cost, and consumers (especially poor people) benefit. I value all life, but I value human life over the lives of chickens and cows. The question is how much human malnutrition is worth alleviating how much suffering in animals?" But CAFOs and slaughterhouses do not have to be this way. The industry needs reform. All of these problems can be fixed. Many alternative systems are emerging. They need to be mainstreamed. Drumsgirl says "I think open heart surgery is pretty gross and disgusting - and don't want to do it or have it done to me - but I still think it's a good thing society does."
G. Although the topics of murder and torture are clearly different, the two are closely related. To work this out there are some key words that need defining: Murder, torture, humane, sentient, pain, compassion, animal abuse, animal rights, among them. Here is where emotion and science clash, and frankly science has problems making its case because, as far as I can see, the research is not there.
7) Environment
V. We are eating species to extinction like swordfish and bluefin tuna. Farm animals have a large carbon footprint. The world's livestock population produces more greenhouse gases than automobiles and a lot of it is methane. StopCensoringMe says "Not only do feed animals consume a great deal of water (and they are often raised in places like California and Texas where water is precious), they also manage to foul water supplies and water tables with the their copious poop."
O. Grains are annuals and the are hell on the soil and water supplies. Perennials, like grasses, are beneficial. Grasses need animal fertilizer. Together they fortify the soil. The impact of annuals, such as corn, soy, beans, vegetables, legumes, and other row crops is deleterious and destroys topsoil. Klbrz says until "a few months ago, one of the biggest (and quite serious) problems facing the Gulf of Mexico was the runoff of fertilizers and pesticides from vegetable crops in the Midwest. Please, don't kid yourself about what farming does or doesn't do to the planet; unless you are buying 100% local, organic, or harvesting from your own backyard, you contribute to serious environmental damage every time you eat soy (especially), corn, and other crops farmed on a large scale." And tractors kill wildlife and destroy habitats.Vicster says "We know that row crops cause soil erosion while destroying habitats. We also know that the regions where fruits and vegetables can be grown all year long tend to be arid. Talk about unsustainable." Hematite says "Concentrating animals in one place causes a number of environmental problems, but it does not increase the total amount of waste they produce. Bison were producing just as much methane 200 years ago as domestic cows are producing now."
And what about the carbon footprint or transporting vegetables north in winter? And don't tell me canning and pickling are solutions. That costs energy, destroy nutrients, and the taste awful.
V. Most of the annual monocrops are grown to feed animals.
G. Seems to me that this is an area that is unsettled. Both sides have strong arguments and plenty of useful data from good sources much of which contradicts other sources. It seems to me, from wading through the links you post, that NOBODY really knows how much water a cow uses a day when you include the water needed for its feed and other peripheral uses.
8) It's all the Republicans' fault
Nixon's Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butz made cheap corn a national goal and subsidies forced incredible yield growth which needed demand, and that was found in cattle, hogs, poultry. Then President George W. Bush gutted the inspection and regulation arms of USDA and FDA. Besides, all Republicans are fat white male meat eaters. Liberals' hands are clean. OK, nobody said that, but I know you want to.
References
Here are some relevant links. If you have others, please share. I will show a bias to well researched and documented articles by established authorities and reputable sources.
Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets.
Allan Savory - Keeping Cattle: cause or cure for climate crisis?
Grass-fed beef has a larger carbon footprint.
Ecological Integrity: Integrating Environment, Conservation and Health.
Humans are vegetarians by nature.
Humans are omnivores by nature.
Eating meat led to smaller stomachs, bigger brains.
What vegans need to know about Vitamin B12
The Expressions of Emotions in Man and Animals by Charles Darwin and others.
Can meat eaters be environmentalists?
The relationship between meat consumption and colorectal cancer remains controversial.
The American Heart Association's dietary recommendations for vegetarians.
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Full disclosure: I run a popular website about barbecue, AmazingRibs.com, with both meat and meatless recipes. I eat meat about five nights a week, rarely at lunch, and never for breakfast. I have read extensively on the subject of meat pro and con and often question the impact of my choices. I was blown away by the powerful arguments against meat in Jonathan Safran Foer's landmark book "Eating Animals". Then I read Lierre Kieth's compelling "The Vegetarian Myth". The middle ground is staked out profoundly by Michael Pollan in "The Omnivore's Dilemma", probably the most important book about food since Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" drew back the curtain on the Chicago stockyards in 1906. I shall try to be fair and open minded in my comments and my selection of arguments to elevate to the main article. If I'm not, I'm sure you will let me know.
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-Craig "meathead Goldwyn from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-goldwyn/eat-meat-or-not-vegans-ve_b_615954.html?show_comment_id=51822034#comment_51822034
Support Vegan. Thanks for sharing, Chin MW, http://www.ycglobalent.com
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